Linguistics Talk

Oleg Lego · Guest

I have noticed in the past few years that when we are asked to stand
for the national anthem (of Canada or the US, but in a Canadian
venue), the request is more often than not accompanied by a request to
"remove your headwear".

Having spent time in the military, removing my headwear goes
completely against my sensibilities, and leaves me wondering when that
request started being made, and what the rationale behind it might be.

I have noticed that the US military (all? some branches?) does have a
different hat etiquette than the Canadian military, and if removing a
hat for the national anthem is a normal US military action, I wonder
if the recent addition of the request in Canada is based on that.

--
roses are #FF0000
violets are #0000FF
all my base
are belong to you

Jim Karatassos · Guest

On Jul 5, 2:44 am, Oleg Lego <> wrote:

Jitze · Guest

On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 00:02:46 -0700 (PDT), Jim Karatassos
<jim.karatassos@gmail.com> wrote:

John Swindle · Guest

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 02:12:28 -0700, Jitze <couperus@znet.com> wrote:

R J Valentine · Guest

On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 12:51:04 +0100 Alan Jones <atj@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

} "Jitze" <couperus@znet.com> wrote in message
} news:escu64ledkrhl8cle41mp27l3g7fur2f6i@4ax.com...
}> On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 00:02:46 -0700 (PDT), Jim Karatassos
}> <jim.karatassos@gmail.com> wrote:
}>
}>
}>>
}>>No and Yes. If you are in uniform, you should not remove your hat. If
}>>you are not, you must remove your hat.
}>>
}> <snip>
}>>
}>>I would be curious to know what the code is in the UK.
}>
}> In Her Majesty's Colonies, approximately the same rules were
}> observed, i.e. uniformed personnel saluted, while the order of service
}> (that little piece of paper they hand you before it all starts and
}> which say which hymns are to be sung and when) instructs that
}> at the appropriate moment "gentlemen will uncover". This implies that
}> neither the Governor's wife nor that of the District Commissioner need
}> remove their florabundant chapeaux.
}>
}> But on the bit about removing it with the right hand and holding it
}> up to the left shoulder so that the hand covers the heart - I think
}> that may be American. [...]

Where (in English usage) "heart" means "left lung".

} Certainly not British. No one may salute when in civilian dress: no one in
} uniform may salute unless wearing a service cap or hat; no one may salute
} when seated (I've just wondered whether that applies to someone in a
} wheelchair - Regulations will certainly cover that situation.) If an officer
} enters a room, those inferior to him or her and hatless "salute" simply by
} standing to attention; the officer says something (perhaps "Stand easy",
} perhaps just "Good morning") and all relax. When returning a salute:
} hatless, a civilian receives the salute simply by standing to attention; a
} civilian with a hat holds it Jitze describes, not across the heart. If films
} are to be believed, practice in the Us is very different.

Not that different. Whether there's a weapon involved makes a difference.
You don't take your hat off when you are carrying a weapon, but you do
inside otherwise. You don't generally salute inside, but you do when
"reporting" to an officer, especially for pay (and he [or anymore she],
being armed and hatted returns the salute) or when representing the
residents during an inspection. When you salute while carrying a rifle,
you generally do so by drawing attention to the rifle, rather than fooling
with the hat. Ronald Reagan's civilian salute when passing saluting
Marines is just plain silly and wrong-wrong-wrongity-wrong, and he should
have known better (and I hear he asked and was told you're President; you
can do anything you want).

I stopped pledging allegiance to the flag back when my first kid started
kindergarten and they wanted people to do that during PTA meetings, but
I'll still stand up while other people do it. I usually stand up while
"The Star-spangled Banner" is reminding us of British atrocities in
America or while "Maryland, My Maryland" is reminding us of Yankee
atrocities here south of Mason and Dixon's Line (and I'm willing to stand
in Texas when they play "I've Been Working on the Railroad" or in England
when they play "My Country, 'Tis of Thee", as long as other people are
also standing), but I don't usually do the left-lung thing unless it's
real formal.

Back when I worked at a Large Government Agency, people stood up when the
Director or Deputy Director came into the auditorium (and also when the
"Ällelulia Chorus" was sung), but not for other people or songs (though I
suppose they would have if the national anthem were played).

} I seem to remember that normally, except on the rare occasions when "General
} Salute - Present Arms!" is ordered, only the officer in charge of each group
} ("flight" etc) on parade salutes - the men simply remain at attention. This
} would be the case, I think, when the National Anthem is played. But I may be
} wrong: I haven't had to salute or be saluted for more than fifty years.

My father was a pilot for Pan American and flew charters onto military
bases during the Vietnam Disagreement, and he'd get saluted all the time.
He just returned the salutes and went about his business.

In basic training we were warned to salute any vehicle with a blue
sticker, and the male drivers tended to salute back, uniformed or hatted
or not. Female drivers tended to smile and wave back. Passing groups of
officers on foot, we'd spread out and let the bunch of them return salutes
to each of us individually.

We had been conditioned to look for gold braid, but a bunch of us up in
New York (City) from Fort Monmouth (where we went to transmitter-repair
school) passed a guy on the street that had a black leather strap just
like us, and we didn't notice until too late the eagle on his shoulder, so
we had to put up with a lecture about all being on the same team (after
months at Fort Dix, where the only insult worse than "trainee" was
"airman").

While I was serving in Japan with the forces that guard our naation's way
of life, we were coming out of work one day and met our platoon leader (a
warrant officer) coming in. He had a grocery bag in his right arm and a
cigar in his mouth, so of course we all saluted him and passed the time of
day. He shifted the bag to his left hand and started to salute, then
remembered the cigar and took that out of his mouth and started to salute,
then thought better of saluting with a cigar in his command and said, "Aw,
the hell with it; good morning, fellows."

I've got a blue sticker for Arlington National Cemetery, but nobody has
ever saluted my car, although an honor squad was once brought to attention
for the car in front of me that carried the post chaplain (a colonel) and
they kindly held it until after my car passed. I wave back when the
civilian guards wave me through.

--
rjv

Peter Duncanson (BrE) · Guest

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 02:12:28 -0700, Jitze <couperus@znet.com>
wrote:

Don Phillipson · Guest

<Oleg Lego> wrote in message
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John Holmes · Guest

Jitze wrote:

Alan Jones · Guest

"Jitze" <couperus@znet.com> wrote in message
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Don Phillipson · Guest

"R J Valentine" <rj@TheWorld.com> wrote in message
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Chuck Riggs · Guest

On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 11:59:48 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

Fred Springer · Guest

Chuck Riggs wrote:

Mike Barnes · Guest

In alt.usage.english, Jim Karatassos wrote:

Cece · Guest

On Jul 5, 2:02 am, Jim Karatassos <jim.karatas...@gmail.com> wrote:

the Omrud · Guest

Mike Barnes wrote: